And right here is the Game of Thrones episode where I start to feel the creep of ennui settling over me like a thick blanket. I knew this day would come, but, four seasons in, it still feels too soon.
Why bother getting attached to characters who will likely die grisly deaths? Why wait for seasons-long plans to come to fruition if your side never, ever wins?
And then we get a scene between a handmaiden and a warrior and Game of Thrones proves its still got surprises.
Heed this raven: Major episode spoilers after the cut. Book comments are fair game in the comments.
First things first—this episode was one I’ve been dreading since Oberyn stole my heart in the season opener.
His really, really grisly death just felt like too much for me. And I’m not talking about the graphic violence, though it was extremely fucking disgusting, even for HBO. Me, diehard Spartacus fan, covered my eyes a bit and squealed.
It’s just too much disappointment. Littlefinger tells Robin “People die on the battlefield, they die in their beds, they die squatting over their chamber pots.” Oh, you don’t say? I just really wanted this one character to live and get his vengeance on. And I know it’s maybe not what Game of Thrones is—no one gets what they want and the bad ones always live—but it is damned frustrating to give oneself over to continued masochism.
I wanted a win, just this once.
Instead Tywin wins again. Instead we get to watch pretty much the only sexy character left on this show have his eyeballs stabbed out and his skull squashed like a ripe tomato. And at this point, I just kind of have to shrug and admit it’s not satisfying. It’s just frustrating. The fight between the (Teddy Bear) Mountain and the Viper was a big huge scene in the books and now that events from A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons—my least favorite books in the series—are looming, there just doesn’t seem to be much to look forward to.
But the fight itself, separate from any context, was really pretty cool. Damn, Oberyn, I will miss you and your sexy accent and your bed-hopping and your paramour. (Will she stick around on the Small Council? It’d be a shame to lose Indira Varma, too.) But really… BEHEAD FIRST, GLOAT LATER. What a rookie mistake! Tyrion couldn’t predict Prince Pantydropper would peacock around his fight more than is wise?
While the titular fight was only the last fifteen minutes of the show, the lead-up brought some nice foreshadowing and some excellent performances from Sophie Turner and Emilia Clarke.
So as depressed as I may be about the death of Oberyn, things in the Vale are getting really, really interesting and Dany’s story is still one I’m invested in, even if I’m not liking her this season.
With Lysa Arryn out the Moon Door (that was still one of the more impactful deaths of this season), Littlefinger can take control of the Vale. We know why he wants Sansa, but why would Sansa lie for him? The Creepy Uncle you know? She certainly is learning how to play the game of thrones and ladders, slinking around in that crow feather dress. Damn, Sansa was just short some black lipstick and she could’ve gone full-on Mia Sara in Legend.
I like.
Dany? Not so much right now.
Dany was way, way too harsh on Jorah. He hasn’t been spying on her since season one, right? That pardon was from two freaking kings ago. Jorah is not the same man she met in Pentos. She’s changed. Is it so hard to believe that Jorah has been changed by all that they’ve been through, too? Kudos to Emilia Clarke for a great, cold performance—she wouldn’t even look at Jorah — and it broke my heart a little.
I’m not a big fan of Jorah’s. He’s one Fedora short of writing a scroll lamenting the plight of Nice Knights. But he didn’t deserve the extreme cold shoulder and no chance to defend himself. If that’s Dany using her queenly judgment, well, may the Seven help the people of Meereen.
Final Thoughts:
- New scenes are some of my favorites. I love the interactions between Missandei and Grey Worm. What will become of them? It’s just nice seeing two small characters getting their own small story. I wish the show wouldn’t follow the books so closely sometimes, so we could have more opportunities for unusual pairings—and not just romantic ones.
- Loved the cinematography in the scene where Ramsey Snow gets legitimized by his father. It reminded me painfully of Ned and what he could have done for Jon Snow if Cat had let him.
- Theon’s trip to Moat Cailin. It was brief. There was a flaying. That’s about it. I don’t think Theon’s story is getting any payoff at this point. Better luck next year, Reek.
- The ladies of Moletown are as classy a bunch as you’d expect. Also, hooray! Everyone else thinks Sam’s a dope for leaving Gilly and her baby in a town of drunken whores, pimps, and johns.
- “I’d kill Joffrey with a chicken bone if I had to.” Arya’s just precious.
- The Hound’s not looking too good. And he’s having a damned hard time finding a living, breathing relative to sell Arya back to. He and Arya do have comedic timing.
Next week: Things liven up with “Castle Black” directed by “Blackwater” and Dog Soldiers director Neil Marshall.
Game of Thrones airs Sundays at 9pm ET/PT on HBO.
Theresa DeLucci is a regular contributor to Tor.com, covering True Blood, Game of Thrones, and gaming news. She’s also the resident Hannibal fannibal at Boing Boing. Follow her on Twitter @tdelucci
Maybe there was more reason than just Cat…
I wonder where the Littlefinger / Sansa story is going. In the books he’s absolutely brilliant and still manipulating Sansa and everyone else perfectly. Now, in the series, he just made a huge mistake and got bailed out by Sansa.
The Arrya scene made no sense. So the Hound doesn’t ask who is in charge? He wouldn’t try to sell her to Littlefinger?
1) I can’t believe they are hand waving away Lysa’s death as a suicide.
2) I can’t believe the Lords of the Vail accepted it with so little fight.
Arya’s laugh was perfect.
I’m still shuddering when I think of his eyes and head… popped like a grape
She hasn’t been spied on in a while…but she was spied on about her child, after she’d already taken him into her trust. Jorah should count his lucky stars for the mercy he’s earned; she could have easily repaid him for his treachery with blood, or fire.
“And at this point, I just kind of have to shrug and admit it’s not satisfying. It’s just frustrating.”
That’s how I feel. I haven’t read the books yet, and have made a good showing of keeping myself spoiler free. Ned’s death made a real impact on me. That was great. The Red Wedding was even better, so many conflicting emotions. But this? I feel nothing but frustration over this. There better be a damn good pay off the last 2 episodes.
Loved the way they handled the fight between The Mountain and the Red Viper. I was worried the show wouldn’t do it justice but I have to say they did a good job. The only thing missing was Tyrion throwing up after Prince Gloaty gets his head smashed in.
The added scenes between Grey Worm and Mesendi are nice, and I understand that it helps to flesh out their characters but I would rather the show spend more time on main character plot then on these side characters. There is more than enough to go around without adding in new bits, however refreshing they may be. Although I won’t complain about the bathing scene.
I never liked the Sansa character from the book, but I would agree that her character in the show is coming off much better. But the way HBO has written events in the Vale with Sansa, Little Finger, and Lysa leaves me wishing they stuck closer to the book material. No one is going to miss Lady Lysa, but I wish she had had her outburst/confession of her role in her late husbands death and her false letter to Cat infront of Sansa as she did in the book. The show seemed to sneak those facts under the viewers nose in favour of her night of screamy sex with LF. But kudos to Sansa for demonstrating that she is learning to play the game.
It is sad to loose Jorah. I like the change from the book on this. They still had Ser Barristan get the news which was a nice tie into the book. But I agree Dany was a bit hard on her knight given how much he has done for her.
Can’t wait for next episode. But I wonder how much of Jon’s story from Book 3 will make it into this season (re: the vote). I wish Ser Allister and his buddy Ser Janos weren’t around. Here’s hoping they handle this bit well.
@2. Black Dread
I agree about the Mountain just showing up and saying he has Arya. That was kind of dumb. Also, there is no mention of them somehow walking through the Mountains of the Moon without running into any of the moutain clans? Just happened waaaaayyy to fast and easy.
Crow dress… so that was what Sanas was wearing…
I was just confused by her necklace, and kept wondering if that profile of hers was supposed to remind LF of a time he saw Cat look like that.
@5: here’s to hoping.
I hope that the TV Viper was using a poisoned spear and we get a screaming dying Mountain.
There is plenty to look forward to. I can’t wait for Tyrion’s awesome drunken adventure across Essos. And by the end of the last book, there is plenty of things going on to indicate what is left of the Lannisters are in real trouble.
I actually looked away a bit, AND I was watching on an old laptop that kept lagging while streaming it live, so I missed a lot of dialouge during the beginning – but at any rate was a bit pixelated, etc at times. I think I might try and watch it again later. But yeah, I was dreading this one :(
Petyr’s line about chamber pots made me laugh out loud and my husband was none the wiser, hah.
I’m not sure where there are going with Sansa but I’m actually pretty excited to see. Actually, it seems more interesting than what I remember in the books, although they are probably most likely heading to the same place (Sansa becoming more adept at the game).
# 3 Agree completely. On all counts.
Also, I finally find Sansa interesting! Book Sansa included.
The conversation between Tyrion and Jamie was my favorite part of the episode. Well done!
– Very nice (if painful) Oberyn/Mountain fight. Loving Indira Varma for her c0ol look and magnificant one liner (“You’re going to fight that???”)
– Took me a long time to figure out WTF with the discussion of the Lannister cousin and the beetles. Just getting philosophical as well as foreshadowy before Mountain squishes the Viper.
– Agree that the Hound-Arya approach scene is ridiculous. Hound would ask for a private meeting with Lysa and would keep Arya out of sight behind him or use some type of intermediary to make the offer. Otherwise, the Vale troops can just grab him and take her. And, in response, the gate guy should at least say “stick around” and we’ll see if LF will be interested in helping. Naming names and nothing happening won’t make any logical sense.
-Theon scene was powerful. More retrospective payoff for all the pain we sat through in Season 3. If we didn’t see that, query whether we’d buy how completely cowed Theon is now.
– Mole Town scene is also a bit ridiculous. Yes, nice to rehumanize Ygritte (which badly needs to happen, given all of her random killings this year) but they are also burning down all the buildings. How is Gilly going to get out?
– Dany has a lot to learn. This is plainly an epic mistake that will cause her problems going forward, And even though was set up differently from the books, the same basic critical point in the scene still came through – Jorah also messed up big time. If instead of saying “I love you” Jorah had said “I’m very sorry and it won’t happen again,” he’d probably still be there.
The duel itself was great and the end…dear gods I was eating cereal at the time…but as a whole this episode definitely had some issues, with some big deviations too (I have to admit though I like not exactly knowing where the show is going with everything)
-Where is Sansa’s character development? She goes from pawn to master player in zero time. She finally becomes interesting, but it’s just too quick.
-I don’t see the lords of the Vale buying the suicide. Imho, it’s even less believable than them buying into Marillion killing her, which I already found doubtful.
-What was that beetle scene about? Boy did that drag on for no payoff. Yeah it was a nice analogy for gods killing people for no apparent reason but surely a skilled tv writer doesn’t need this long to convey that?
-So… where are they going with Arya? I can’t think of a suitable way for this to play out for her to reach Braavos and not meet LF and her sister. Nothing against changes from the book, but I have my doubts this is going to be good writing.
-How are they going to have Jon pardon the wildings if they indiscrimnately slaughter every living person they meet south of the wall? I don’t quite remember how much raiding they did in the books, so that might be a fault of the book, but I just can’t see them leaving the wildings south after that.
Also, are we still supposed to like Ygritte because she spared a baby and “only” killed adults?
It also looks I might have to think about stopping with GOT after the fourth season. We’re already getting into stuff that I guess is TWOW material (Alayne revealed as Sansa, the Night King..) and I think I want to read the books first…
@9
In HBO’s behind the scenes segment for this episode Benioff mentions that the Mountain has been poisened. So hopefully we will.
I really liked all of deviations from the book in this episode. Its nice that the big touchstone moments from the book are all very faithfully adapted so we can look forward to them but, I like that some storylines will keep me guessing. The Grey Worm/Missandei storyline has been great, and I enjoy TV!Sansa more than Book!Sansa at this point. The one exception to this was the Tyrion and Jamie convo about thier simple cousin, couldn’t get into that one.
And, yes, was floored when Sansa outed herself to Lords Royce, Waynewood and ???? Very interesting how this is playing out and I’m wondering if this book modification is an early shift into WoW developments to which the showrunners are privy.
I felt disturbed, when I started laughing when the Bloody Gate guard told them Lysa was dead, and then Arya did too.
Also, what MORON would turn away The Hound claiming to have Arya Stark, EVEN IF Lysa is dead?
That whole Roose/Ramsay scene was SO reminiscent of those earlier “In the North” scenes, it was spooky.
I think Dany was completely in the right. It’s not what he did years ago. It’s the years that have gone by, without telling her the truth. If, at the moment of the poisoning, he’d told her the truth, that he’d been spying but she’d converted him, she’d have let it go.
Ugh. Stupid me. Forgot to set my DVR. Now I have to wait till Tuesday’s replay. Must not read post or comments…
With Lysa Arryn out the Moon Door (that was still one of the more impactful deaths of this season)
Literally!
@13, The whole point of the raids, is that they are trying to draw the NW out from Castle Black. That was the whole reason they were sent over the wall, to attack the Wall from the south, while Mance closed in from the north. Now that plan was before Jon went back to the NW to tell them, but without further orders, the Wildlings continue on, trying to cripple the NW from the south, so Mance has less resistance.
And the beetle scene was absolutely on point. There is a great parallel with Tyrion’s talk of the gods, and with the implications about Gregor Clegane. At the end of the day, they do it(kill beetles) because they can and they get satisfaction from it.
In re Grey Worm and Missandei, I’m liking it, if only because you need some happiness. Last season was supposed to be this whole TRU LUB thing with Jon and Ygritte, but I could never buy into it, knowing Jon was lying and Ygritte was manipulating that get a sexual relationship from him.
There is none of that baggage with GW & Missandei, so I am much more invested.
@6, I’m gonna say not much of Jon’s story will make it.
@@@@@ 9 and 14 – Just before the fight if you watch closely you can see a squire next to Oberyn and his paramour, using some kind of wet towel on a spear tip. He’s also wearing gloves while doing it… So he’s probably not just making it shiny :)
So the Red Viper vs The Mountain That Rides was an amazing piece of television, filmed perfectly and just as I had envisioned it. The new interaction between Missendei and Grey Worm was truly great. Everything else in this episode made my eye twitch.
Sansa just comes out and rescues LF and reveals herself? That’s so inconsistent with her character from the books (and earlier in the show). She at least needs another season to become so good at playing the Game of Thrones.
Arya and the Hound just threw me. Now everyone knows that Arya is alive and Cersei will have to find out and send people after her. And the Hound never struck me as that dumb, nor would any knight guarding the Eyrie turn away someone claiming to have Arya Stark. WTF?
Dany and Jorah just didn’t work. They should have kept the way she dismisses him in the books, it wasn’t really believable or understandable in this episode.
“People die on the battlefield, they die in their beds, they die squatting over their chamber pots.”
LOL. My favorite part of the episode.
@19 I understand what the motivation behind the raids is, but my point remains that no one would stand for letting the wildings south when they massacre hundreds of civilians just for the chance of a tactical advantage. Not that others haven’t done things just as bad in war, but I can’t see them opening the gates..
As for the beetle scene, I got the point, I just think it wasn’t done in a particular elegant fashion and took way too much time.
For anyone who needs some uplifting, there’s this episode review in pics+caption style (warning, swear words etc.)
http://maisiewilliams.tumblr.com/post/87569966119/what-you-missed-on-4×08-of-game-of-thrones
@23, Most people of the North don’t stand for it.
Hello. My name is Oberyn Martell. You raped my sister, you murdered her and you killed her children. Prepare to die.
It’s strange, I didn’t remember Princess Bride ending like this…
I really loved this episode and am excited for the next two. However, as Theresa points out, I’m worried that I won’t care about the events of the next season (or two unless book 6 somehow get’s released in time). The events in AFFC and ADWD are mostly very boring, I have trouble even guessing what Season 5’s big moments will be. I’m going to keep watching, just like I’m going to keep reading, but the pressure is on GRRM even more than before to give us something GOOD. I like that those on here who have only watched and not read are equally unsatisfied with yet another great character dying; I can remember reading this chapter for the first time “Yes………finally something good…….YES………Finish him already……..NO! NO! ARE YOU F****** KIDDING ME???” (Throws book across room and pouts)
Reading the book and watching the show, I thought the same thing – stop monologuing! The Incredibles had a couple of scenes making fun bad guy monologuing.
1. Nasty, nasty death for the Big O. I just could not handle the sound effects. I look forward to seeing the Mountain die in poisoned agony. I do not look forward to seeing him again as a robot Frankenstein.
2. Stupid as that knight in the Vale was (and arguably the Hound as well), the Hound/Arya scenes always bring a smile to my face. I loved their bonding over how awesome they think it is to kill people. And Arya’s laugh was the high point of the episode, seriously.
3. Loved the scene with Jaime and Tyrion.
4. Roose Bolton accepting Ramsay as his own blood made me and my roomate both say “You know, that would almost be heartwarming, if they weren’t the worst people ever.”
5. Sansa’s move in Littlefinger’s defense is cleverer than I feel like some people are giving her credit for. She put in enough truth to make the lies more convincing, and by outing her true identity, she’s ensured that Royce and the rest of the Council will be looking out for her safety, which they would not have done for the half-witted bastard cousin of a man they all openly dislike. She’s managed to keep Littlefinger around to be her mentor in magnificent merciless manipulation while simultaneously making sure that if he gets handsy with her again, he’ll be buying himself a one-way ticket through the Moon Door or a stay in the sky cells. (Just how clever Sansa was here did kind of happen too quickly, I admit.)
6. Regarding ennui and frustration: I agree, it gets sort of irritating when the worst thing possible happens again and again and again. It’s one reason I don’t like Warhammer 40K. Martin set out to subvert people’s expectations of fantasy literature. At this point, however, his own books have been around long enough, and his penchant for murdering characters everyone likes is such a running joke among the fandom, that I think if he wants to keep the interest of his readers, he’ll need to start subverting their expectations of his own writing, not genre conventions. Let Brienne or Tyrion have one solid victory for a change. Let Ramsay or Roose get what’s coming to them. If the novels can’t do it, maybe the showrunners should.
7. Last but not least, the line about people dying while squatting over their chamberpots made me laugh. Two weeks from now, my roommates will know why.
@16: I may need to re-watch when I get back home, but I’m certain the guards at the Eyrie did not turn the Hound and Arya away in last night’s episode. They offered Arya their condolences, the Hound stood there dumbstruck, Arya laughed her head off, the scene changed and we saw no more of these two. The guards haven’t had the opportunity to turn them away, and Sandor hasn’t had the opportunity to find out who’s in charge.
@25 +1 I would be a very disturbed person if Princess Bride ended like that.
@29 Yeah, I don’t think Arya and the Hound were turned away. The scene ended early. Also what is with all of these Stark girls outing themselves to everyone?! Sansa’s a wanted for regicide! Arya is also being hunted. Jeez. Also, silly girls, two Starks can never, ever share a scene together.
This is why I wish the show would differ from the book a bit more, especially in the coming AFFC/ADWD era. Improve on the story’s missteps, take some risks, surprise book readers of which there are so, so many by now.
So many things about this episode I want to respond to.
First about Sansa. I have been disliking Sansa in the show lately, more than I did in the books, and couldn’t quite figure out why but @13 hit the nail on the head: that Sansa’s development into chessmaster extraordinairre seems to be happening WAY too fast. She was nowhere near this manipulative in the books at this point where her development made more sense. After King’s Landing she was a broken bird and still needs some rehab. In the show she’s basically like “Ok, cool, I am now your pupil Sensei Littlefinger”.
I was even sort-of okay with her change until this episode. I figured her whole “let LF off the hook” was deliberately orchestrated by LF – because of course he would know they would want to talk to Sansa. So I just assumed he coached her and told her what to say. For exactly the same reasoning Sansa had, but claiming she reasoned on her own without guidance from LF just made it seem too… fast.
Although I do admit to a certain satisfaction in seeing Sansa realize the one thing LF wants is her, so she can manipulate the manipulator.
@12 and re:beetle’s scene: I also thought this was quite a pointless scene. We don’t need characters waxing rhapsodic about an allusion to gods and/or stronger men killing men. Sure it’s on point, and it was another great performance by Dinklage and maybe that’s the only real reason they added it – but the scene felt waaay too long for something that had no plot relevance whatsoever.
The Arya/Hound scene at the gate just makes me scratch my head. I get Sansa admitting her identity, that can be worked in. But Arya appearing at the gates, the Hound announcing her, and the guard is just like “too bad so sad”??? Really? It makes no kind of sense even at all.
Even if the guard doesn’t let them go – then we have to worry about LF and all the people actually knowing who Arya is and where. So that brings up a ton of problems the book didn’t have, because Arya and Sandor split before the Eyrie. If people do know where she is, and with whom, that screws up at least one future plotline. And I really doubt the show wants to add filler to Arya’s storyline when it’s supposed to just now be starting to get pretty badass. Sticking her in the Eyrie even for an episode is just downright cruel.
The only other option is that the guard does let them go, and the show acts like it never happened and only added for the supposed humor moment. Which is also just baffling.
Also brilliant insight about the Ramsey scene. I hadn’t drawn the parallel to Ned and Jon but that is spot on. It’s basically the anti-Stark what-could-have-been moment. And you should be very scared.
As for @10: I also lol’d at LF’s comment so hard.
Journey or Destination?
With Sansa, it’s a pity there wasn’t a coherently plausible combination of both.
Given where the show is at with most plot points now, Sansa’s ‘arrival’ as a player so abruptly robs Peter to pay Paul. On the one hand, in isolation, I liked it … Alot. Well played by Sophie Turner, excellent grouping of scenes throughout the episode and consistent pattern-matching, which has been established since Baelish’s first discussion with a non-hysterical Sansa on his ‘rescue boat’.
Instinctively, I agree with comments above – Sansa’s ‘manipulative-fu’ does feel abrupt. (There must be a scene on the cutting room floor where she plugs into LF’s Matrix Training Program™ behind his back ;o )
On reflection however, I have to admit that no matter how much I may think myself reconciled, I still instinctively relate back to the Books while watching. When I can divorce my reader’s expectations and hopes from my viewer’s experience, what Sansa did and how her triptych of key scenes paid-off was clearly signposted throughout.
I didn’t like the journey as much as the beginnings of it in AFFC. It wasn’t organic enough as compared to the books, where Sansa develops a reputation of responsibility by default, then slowly earns respect from those around her by carrying that responsibility more and more assertively, while learning believably – not miraculously – from both LF and her situational interactions. But the destination in the show …
… Those ‘looks’, that stillness, that poise … Breathtaking!
And it gives rise to an interesting reversal within, for me, where I hope the books can live up to the moment of Sansa’s arrival on-screen.
Now to resume normal programming. The Hound & Arya scenes pretty much got the shallow, contrived payoff, their mostly nonsensical – with occasional magic moments – detour boxed them into. The unnecessary deviation from what was on the page created an intermittent foray into ‘buddy-comedy’, without the consistent dramatic rise and separation Arya and Sandor got in the books.
Reek at Moat Cailin passed muster, no more. Dany’s story (and miscellaneous character support) has long been ‘dead’ to me. A pretty collection of people & locations I let drone on in the background, while I think about what I saw before and anticipate what comes next.
Which is probably why I can’t remember if the TV show has made much of the ‘Three Betrayals you shall know’ from Quaithe(?) – has that even been a thing? I stopped caring after Dany ‘got’ her army.
Lastly, The End.
Brutal. Shocking. Watchable.
But neither poignant nor arresting enough. Which is bitterly disappointing given the material they had on the page, to work with and the talent and physicality they missed the chance to move & overwhelm us with on-screen.
Perhaps my expectations were too high, but the impactful flashes were not enough to disguise the lack of grounding bedrock Oberyn’s self-loathing and guilt wrt to Elia, form – just as resonantly – no matter how often I read the scenes in the book.
grl
13# I actually think the beetle scene was brilliant, and it was especially good because it didn’t have a clear point. Tyrion’s quest to figure out the mystery of the beetle perfectly paralleled the Red Viper’s quest. Ultimately pointless. Just like the whole series. Most of us know deep down the series is going to end with the White Walkers killing everyone, and everything having been pointless. But we keep going because we fool ourselves into believing there will be a point.
If the fight had been just a LITTLE longer with a little more tension, I would’ve been satisfied. But as it stands it’s only an average duel with a borderline unwatchable climax.
When I worked for the Sherriff in Memphis I was told the king did indeed die on his chamberpot so it does happen. Valar Morghulis!
@34 – If only Tyrion had projectile vomited a huge breakfast then laughed hysterically, I would have been satisfied.
So, did Oberyn poison Tywin Lannister as well, as was hinted at in the books? I couldn’t catch anything that would confirm or rule this out so far, but maybe I missed it?
The show has cleared up a few things (like Theon’s castration) that were hinted at in the books, but I didn’t get a feeling on this issue.
@37 Well, we didn’t get Gregor’s Poisoning yet, so it would make sense to have it next episode if they intend to put that in – but I doubt it. In almost all cases, D&D have decided to ditch subtlety, I guess because they feel it would be lost in the TV show. Bit disappointed about that sometimes, but I can understand not wanting things to get lost.
Anyways, imho the only way Tywin’s poisoning makes sense is if it IS subtle. It’s supposed to let us wonder. If it was made explicit, I think Tyrion’s act would seem ironic, maybe useless. I don’t think that’s where they want to go with this, so I doubt the show will allude to that.
I missed that Littlefinger line. Nice.
What a terrible episode. Other than a decent trial by combat, I say decent because it could have been better, this one was a mess. Where to begin?
I called the Sam leaving Gilly and baby in moletown just so Ygritte could spare her a couple weeks ago. For the commenter above who asked about the wilding raiding, they do hit moletown in the books too.
The Bolton scene was missing something very important, the legitimizing of Ramsey is supossed to come from Tywin as a result of Roose’s part in the red wedding. Only a king can legitimize a bastard. D & D make it seem like all a father has to do is accept his bastard as his son and heir and it doesn’t work that way. It’s why Ned couldn’t just legitimize Jon himself.
More to come later, I have to go pick up my duaghter from school.
@40: I’ll have to watch the Bolton part again.
But even if the King did legitimize Ramsey, Roose still has to give him the paper. Ramsey still had to prove himself to his father. So Roose had it in his back pocket, but could have torn it up at any point.
But yes, has led others to wonder why Ned did not do it for Jon if it was “easy.”
roose bolton has no other heir. ramsay is his only option, and clearly he’s not 100% confident. roose is not a psycho. he’s cruel but he’s not the butcher that ramsay is. even ramsay admits he’s reviving ancient customs with all this crazy flaying.
ned stark, on the other hand, had no expectation that things would change all that much for his family. he already had an heir in robb and two backups in bran and rickon. from his perspective what would legitimizing jon have done other than remove the stain of being born out of wedlock? he still couldn’t inherit and would still be widely known as the product of adultery.
i’m hoping for some oberyn flashbacks in the future. it would be cool to see him walk into a brothel and give obara a choice.
Okay, back now. I agree that the Arya & Hound story was a fail. I don’t think there is a chance in hell of Arya seeing the inside of the Eyrie. I would bet real money that the next time we see Arya and the Hound they are wandering thru the countryside again trying to figure out what to do now.
Also, I’m not buying the the whole bite on the neck bringing down the Hound thing they’ve got going. It’s too much like that little scratch that took out Drogo. I realize that it is more likely for someone to die from infection than from the actual wound, but having the wounds be so small, a little scratch or a little bite, is really anti-climatic in my opinion.
And what the fuck is going on in the Eyrie anyways? Littlefinger doesn’t have a plan? Let me repeat that, Littlefinger doesn’t have a plan? Really, since when? I knew that the story was going in a bad direction when they didn’t have a singer (because they already killed him off, DOH!) on hand to blame the murder on. Come on, this is LF, the crimainal mastermind here! While I agree that Sophie’s acting in the episode was awesome, Sansa being better at the game than LF already is just too much. And the whole Dark
PhonixSansa thing was way too over the top for me.Let’s see, what else, oh yeah, the beetle speech. While a nice little scene between Tyrion and Jamie with yet another great performance by Peter, I thought it went on a little too long. Maybe if they spent a little less time talking about beetles they wouldn’t have had to rush the trial by combat. Am I the only one who thought the combat felt rushed?
As much as I enjoyed seeing Missandei nude, I don’t understand why we are spending time with minor characters at the expense of the more important stories. It is what I am most disapointed with in the show, the showrunners choice to spend time on their made up little storylines while omiting things from the books.
One last thing, I have to disagree with Emilia giving a great performance. I thought she was just as bad as she always is. She is easily the worst actress in the show, imo.
A few thoughts:
– Sansa made a shrewd decision, revealing her true identity in a way that trumped Littlefinger’s plans, but still left him beholden to her. And she has decided to dress a little more like an adult. But that signals a shift in her tactics, not turns her into a whole new character. At this point, anything that gives the character a bit more agency is fine with me.
– I liked the beetle crushing conversation. It could be taken a lot of different ways–myself, it reminded me of all the people vying for power just for the sake of power, and how obsessive their behavior is.
– The Viper v Mountain scene was perfect, if a bit too graphic for my taste. They did a great job with the Viper, and I will miss him.
– The Arya/Hound scene ends with her somewhat hysterical laughter. I have heard that kind of laugh from folks who are at their wits end. But a lot of people are jumping to conclusions–we don’t know what happens next to the two of them.
– I totally missed the chamber pot reference. Probably because I had a relative die on the toilet, and found out that is where a lot of people suffer heart attacks, for some odd reason. So I wasn’t even thinking of foreshadowing.
– It was nice to see Ygritte show some humanity. GRRM did a good job of humanizing the Wildings in the book, not showing them as just cardboard baddies–so anything the show does in the same vein is a good thing. Just like the real world, Westros is a world of protagonists and antagonists, not cliche heroes and villains. It is one of the reasons I decided to read it, for me a rare foray into fantasy.
– And I like the affection between Grey Worm and Missandei. Eunichs are people, and can feel love and attraction, regardless of how the plumbing works or doesn’t work. And a little portrayal of friendship and romance goes a long way toward lightening up the mood of a show that can easily get too bleak and hopeless at times.
I’m going to miss Oberyn. As with most of the significant Good Guy Deaths, knowing it was going to happen didn’t make it hurt any less. The gore didn’t help. His final fight was gorgeously choreographed and he had just as much confidence and strut as he deserved.
As my roommate commented, it would have been great if he’d had even more scenes added in. Buffering up the Kings Landing plot could have 1) been very interesting, 2) given more of a chance to lay the seeds for next season’s Dorne plot, and 3) Given Oberyn more chances to shine.
My favorite scene from tonight was Tyrion and Jaime just before the trial. It had such gems as: “if the gods decide a man’s fate by making two other men hack each other to pieces, what does that say about the gods?” And the monologue about beetle-smashings. It said much about the way Westeros deals with mental illness, but it also could have been an interesting comment on why the author/showrunners kill so many people…no particular reason. Just like the gods.
Little finger is not the Creepy Uncle you know. Sansa kisses him back. There was something there in the books and the show expounds on it. Not to mention Petyr has access to every bank in Westeros and Essos, the second greatest spy ring in the land, and is the lord paramount of the Riverlands. He’s also recently widowed which means he could marry again to gain a new alliance for the Vale.
Sorry to disagree, but Littlefinger is totally Creepy Uncle. He just pushed his new wife to her death. Which makes all the money and power in the world irrelevant. He personifies creepiness.
Definitely some amazing filmwork in this episode. The whole Bolton naming scene was beautifully shot and kind of touching but juxtaposed against the absolute horror of the two characters involved. And then there is the fight. What an amazing contest that was. I’m really going to miss Oberyn. I can’t wait for the gutshot now. Finally something for the good guys on the horizon.
This is the way the Red Viper ends
Not with a bang, with a squish.
I totally felt exactly the same thing about Sansa’s dress. My first thought was legend and my second thought was imagining Sansa doing her best Jennifer Connelly dancing with the Goblin King. :)
I actually understand the two most talked about scenes in the episode. That long discussion about beatles may be considered a refrence to the way Obyren dies or the capriciousness of Gods but i believe it was in fact humanizing Jamie, displaying the close bond between two brothers and at the same time setting up for a big moment in future episodes. Also showing how Jamie is different (redeemable) from rest of his family.
similarly Arya scene was rightly built because those 4 lords of vale kept there word and no one knows that sansa resides in erieye. So Hound who has come to get his reward (reward not ransom) from grateful aunt turns back because there is no one left to reward him. and poor guardsman doesn’t stop him because he doesn’t know that he is supposed ot help Starks. I felt this scene had parallels to Bran and Jon missed meeting.
Thank heavens for Athreeren’s comment above. I thought I was the only person who kept expecting Oberyn to say “Hello. You keeled my seester. Prepare to die.”
Jineapple @@@@@ #13: “The duel itself was great and the end…dear gods I was eating cereal at the time.”
Please tell us it was not a bowl of Captain Crunch.
re Roose & Ramsay: I hope I would think twice before making a murderous psychopath my legitimate heir. Seems a little risky for one’s continued health.
@42. sofrina
They did not emphasize it in the series as much as the books, but Roose is a complete sociopath – utterly lacking in any kind of empathy or conscience. His Frey wife Fat Walda is already pregnant so he may have had a heir on the way. Making Ramsay legitimate probably saved the kid’s life.
Ramsay admires his father because, while he has it better controlled, he is even more brutal than his son.
@46, Littlefinger is three times Sansa’s age. There is no way to TRY to do that, without making it creepy.
@42, Yes, Roose is WORSE than Ramsay, because he’s just as brutal and cruel, but has it mastered. Which are you more afraid of, the easily distrated junkyard dog, or the one that has been trained to relentlessly hunt you?
@55 I don’t think age-difference is such a thing in Westeros… especially when involving weddings between powerful families.
@45 Great idea by your roommate! I wish the show had started with the Dorne characters during this season and established some of the plotting that was going on early, so it wouldn’t have felt as tacked-on as it did (to me) in the books. If we had already met Quentyn and Griff by now, it would feel a lot more cohesive.
Well damn. I knew it was coming, but oh Oberyn, I will miss you! My husband did not know it was coming and gasped out loud! It certainly looked like Oberyn was the victor, but then when the Mountain rose up and grabbed him, it was stunning! Damn.
I will miss Indira Varma too…should she hie back to Dorne, and why wouldn’t she? I agree, it would’ve been nice to have met Quentyn and Griff before now.
It is disheartening to lose so many good characters. Realistic in this world, perhaps, but it makes me not trust GRRM with my emotions. I read him very dispassionately now, to save myself!
Littlefinger is creepy personified, but Sansa! She creeped me out too…..first when she looked up at LF when the older woman is hugging her, with that “I’m on your team now and you owe me” look , and then at the end, when she appeared in that black feathered outfit, smiling. Whoa. And bye Robyn, good luck out there ;-)
I know the Hound is a murdering bastard, but like so many GRRM characters, he’s growing on me. I’m actually starting to feel sorry for him! His brother’s a psychopath, he’s betrayed the Lannisters and has a price on his ugly head, he’s broke, wandering, is injured, has Arya to take care of (or rely on!), with no where else to go. He’s at the end of his tether. Poor doggie. (And what did Sansa mean when she said, Are you ready to go?)
And Roose and Ramsay are perhaps the two scariest characters in the whole story!
And Dany….you have a lot to learn. I don’t blame her for being untrusting of Jorah, particularly since Jorah didn’t deal with his reveal very well. An apology maybe?? “I came to respect you, Kaleesi ,and started sending mis-information”? Something, besides “I love you”? Gack. Perhaps she rightly judges that the people of Mereen only know brute force, but she needs to learn some subtlety, and politics. Perhaps, showing there is another way to rule would be instructive?
@47 Did you miss the part where Lysa tries to kill Sansa? Lysa would have killed her own niece if not for Little finger. She a broken jealous woman at that point. That’s the opposite of creepy. He saves Sansa’s life, the second time he does that for her. When you save someone’s life there is a natural inclination to like the person you saved which is why Sansa starting to be conflicted in her feelings towards Little finger make sense.
Little finger wants more than Sansa. To think or say otherwise is to oversimplify an extremely complex character. Now that he has the Vale under his control let’s see if he follows through with the book plan of taking back the North or allying with other factions against the Lannisters and Tyrells.
The creepy part about Littlefinger isn’t his attraction to an attractive teenager. It is his willingness to burn the entire continent to the ground if it helps him win more power.
@58, Did you miss the part where Lysa only tried to kill her because a man old enough to be Sansa’s father macked on her? And what Black Dread said.
Yes, he’s done things that have been beneficial to Sansa. He’s also done thing that haven’t, like set up her father to be murdered, and stop her marriage to a powerful house that could protect her from the predations of the Lannisters AND his own. One does not counteract the other.
@57, LF is trying to convince Robin that he has to leave the Eyrie and begin making his presence felt in the Vale, which is what he promised the Lords Declarant he would do, prepare Robin to be a true Lord of the Vale. Sansa is assisting him in this, by doing something much similar to what Margaery is doing with Tommen(this will make some great parallels next season!).
But Sansa is also using this to manipulate LF. She adorns herself in feathers, taking on his signifier, thus demonstrating to him that she has “joined” him, and has dyed her hair the same as Cat’s, to foster the similarities.
So Sansa’s last dress is a big thing. But I’m really wondering about the clue given by her necklace. Hello the thing is a massive chain! Does this signal her transfer of one “prison” for another? But one she accepts? She’s now one of Littlefinger’s little birds.
Boy would I love to play dress up in the GoT wardrobe.
Link for detail imags of the dress:
http://geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=2455
I got that LF was sending Robin out to tour the Vale and get to know his vassels, but is Sansa going too? That’s where I was confused. Robin does need some toughening up, but I predict a much grislier fate for him ;-)
And I think LF wants much more than Sansa, for sure! He may actually lust after her, as a surrogate Cat, or for her own young nubile loveliness, but he wants the North, and after that, perhaps all of Westeros. LF never thinks small, despite his name, stature, and his humble beginnings.
I can’t to see what A Song of Ice and Attire has to say about it. They’ve always loved Sansa’s outfits.
Also, Varys is the one with Little Birds, not LF, his symbol is a bird.
That quote by Varys in the third season was not meant to describe Littlefinger. It was tolent from King Aerys upon learning that Tywin had betrayed him in the War of the Usurper. “Let him be king of the ashes” said Aerys before ordering his pyromancers to set the entire coty of King’s landing ablaze. Littlefinger would never do that. To intimate that he would is one of the big problems I have with the series versus the books.
Littlefinger is not respnsible for the War of the Five Kings. Cersei and Lancel are because they killed King Robert Baratheon. Why do you think Lancel converts to the church once he sees the devastation at Darr? He knows he caused all of it. Robert Baratheon is the one ma who could have united four of the seven kingdoms against Tywin: the North, the riverlands, the stormlands, and the Reach.Tywin would have had Tyrion back and retreated back into the West if Robert had lived.
Lysa is a broken woman because of what her father did to her in aborting Lysa and Petyr’s baby in utero. That’s what really caused this terrible infatuation with Robin and ultimately why she chose to kill Jon Arryn. Littlefinge rkissed Sansa yes, but is it a reasonable response to threaten to kill Sansa? No use your words Lysa to express your displeasure, don’t threaten her with the moon door.
Little finger did all he could to save Ned. He saved his life twice: Once in the throne room when Ned was about to commit suicide by joining in the losing battle against the gold cloaks and Kingsguard while he was injured. He did not have a hand in betraying him either as Cercei bought Slynt with Harrenhal. Littlefinger did not control Harrenhal at the time. Littlefinger then negotiated with Varys to have Ned released to the Night’s Watch. We learn this in Dance during Cercei’s walk of shame.
@60 If Sansa had married into the Tyrell House she would have joined a House that is currently allied with the Lannisters. How does that help her in any way? There is no possible way she could convince anyone from the Reach to start killing Lannisters. Mace may be a dolt, but Mr. Tarly is not. She would have the same amount of agency as being married to Tyrion: none. The Vale and littlefinger are the best chance for a resurgence of the Starks as a political and military force.
And HOW did Cersei know to subourn Slynt?
Littlefinger is not respnsible for the War of the Five Kings.
No one has said he is. They just hold him accountable for capitalizing on it.
@65, Yes, because House TYRELL is ALL ABOUT locking up their womenfolk and denying them political power.
Do you even read what you write? Or does your blind allegiance to Nice Guy Littlefinger just keep you from seeing it?
@67 – Moderator here. Please tone down the rhetoric and remain civil to other commenters, per our moderation policy. Thank you!
For some reason, despite reading every book, I held out hope that Oberyn would possibly win & be paralyzed from the waist down in the battle. It would have been an actual, interesting change compared to the ones created thus far for the other moments. They could have kept the same throughline for that (family’s) porition of the story too, but I don’t want to spoil anything.
That battle was extremely well-done and I can’t really be mad. Oberyn kept every shred of his coolness to the end, regardless of losing.
I do sort of wonder why D&D feel the need to keep interjecting these moments where these related characters just barely almost meet. Like, Bran and Jon Snow, Arya and Sansa, and even Yara and Theon. For me, it just appears that these new, “oh my gosh, will they?” moments are filling in space where we should have some slower, quiet, adventure time with our characters so they can talk and we can see the politics of the world happening in the background. Season 1 and 2 did that stuff really, really great and it’s been slowly moving away from it since.
Fair enough, allow me to elaborate.
There is no possible way she could convince anyone from the Reach to start killing Lannisters.
So, Olenna Tyrell isn’t from the Reach? Because I seem to recall Sansa convincing her to kill a Lannister.
If I seem to get a bit aggro, well, that’s because apologism for a child
predator does that to me.
The very fact that to make this part of the story watchable, the showrunners, who are not sensitive at all to these issues, felt the need to empower Sansa much sooner than the books, tells you that. The best thing they could have done was create a way to make him as beholden to her as she is to him, because NOW there is some equality in their relationship.
And I’m really curious about what possible interpretation you get that she kissed him back? And even if she did, how that possibly excuses him. There are predators that groom children to reciprocate, that doesn’t mean it’s a consensual relationship.
Actually, Ollena and Little finger plan the murder of Joffrey Baratheon at the same time the marriage alliance is proposed. Sansa did not convince Lady Ollenna to kill Joffrey. That was already the plan. But Ollenna has no overt hatred of all the Lannisters as Sansa does. It would work against her interests as now part of the royal family to start hostilities with the Lannisters.
I don’t see Sansa as a child. She’s a teenager, and in the eyes of Westeros she’s a woman flowered. I understand that some see this show as a mirror for modern day society, but it’s a medieval fantasy novel. And in medieval times forty something men did court and marry fifteen year old women. This wasn’t seen as predatory as it would be today.
I see Sansa as conflicted in her feelings towards Little finger. In her viewpoint when she kisses him, she lingers for a moment. Why linger if there was nothing there? In the show the kiss lasts for 5-7 seconds. If she didn’t like him in that way why was the kiss so long?
At what point will you be convinced there is a consensual relationship? Little finger has given Sansa a lot of autonomy. She has free range of the Eyrie and the Bloody Gate when they move there. She has access to Little finger during the middle of the night. If Sansa harbored ill feelings toward Little finger she could just wake up grab a knife and stab him. But she doesn’t. She wants to be in the Vale for the time being, and Petyr has kept it PG. If Petyr would force himself upon her, I would immediately agree with you, but he hasn’t and I don’t believe he will because that’s not what he is. He never forced himself on Cat or Lysa.
@@@@@ 71: Two words for you:
Stockholm’s syndrome
The episode said it: Better the devil you know.
Where else is she to go? The North is under Bolton control, the Lanisters are still in power in the South, and she has no money of her own. She’s not Arya, she has not been trained to fight with a knife. She’s learning how to fight with words.
We will all see how this plays out.
Sansa did not convince Lady Ollenna to kill Joffrey.
Sansa’s confession about Joffrey’s true nature was the essential evidence Oleanna needed. The plan may have been contemplated before that, but Sansa provided a crucial element.
I see Sansa as conflicted in her feelings towards Little finger.
Every viewer watches a different show.
Whether Sansa convinces Olenna to kill Joffrey is irrelevant since Joffrey is a special case that directly threatened Margerye. Sansa would not be able to convince Olenna to kill Lannisters troops or Cersei. More importantly Sansa doesn’t have to convince anyone in the Vale to start killing Lannisters. They already want to kill Lannisters and Petyr does too for killing Catelyn. It’s not Stockholm syndrome if the captors want what their prisoner wants. Petyr openly declares that he will use the Vale to take back Winter fell. What more does he have to do to show he has Sansa’s best interest at heart?
We all have opinions but the fact of the matter is that was a long kiss for someone you have no feelings for.
Whether Sansa convinces Olenna to kill Joffrey is irrelevant since Joffrey is a special case that directly threatened Margerye.
Yes, and Olenna understood that precisely because of what Sansa said.
Petyr does too for killing Catelyn
Well, maybe. What Petyr wants is seldom straightforward. If pursuing his goals meant that he blamed the Freys alone for Catelyn’s death, he’d do that. If it meant going after Lannisters, even those not involved in the RW, he might do that too.
Petyr openly declares that he will use the Vale to take back Winter fell. What more does he have to do to show he has Sansa’s best interest at heart?
Perhaps he might not have lied to Catelyn and Ned about the knife or about Jon Arryn’s murder. And the fact that he told Ned Stark not to trust him pretty strongly suggests that he’d have to do quite a bit indeed to get Sansa to trust him, even putting aside his creepy pedophile interest in her (Medieval customs notwithstanding).
Well I just had a thought. Since Rorge and Biter are already dead and won’t be around to attack Bienne, I have the feeling that the next time we see her and Pod they will run into the Brothers w/o Banners and that will then lead to the reveal of Lady Stoneheart.
Also, LF is not acting in the best interest of the Starks. LF wants revenge against the Stark family for taking Cat away from him. It is his motivation for the whole kill Jon Arryn to get the Starks and Lannisters fighting plot going. Killing Jon Arryn had nothing to do with Lysa’s feelings or her wanting her husband dead, she was just another one of LF’s pawns. LF wants the Starks utterly destroyed, especially Ned. He was never trying to protect Ned, he wanted Ned dead.
One last thing, LF is totally creepy when it comes to Sansa.
As I remember it, Littlefinger had his hands on Sansa’s head during the kiss–it would have been difficult for her to break it off until he let her–so I don’t see the length of the kiss implying consent at all.
I agree that Littlefinger is a ‘complex’ character. He has many sides. He is not only creepy, he is manipulative, he is greedy, he is selfish, he is power-hungry, and he is slimy.
Why are people saying the Knight of the Bloody Gate turned Arya and the Hound away? He didn’t. He said he was sorry, not because he was turning them away, but because he was delivering to Arya the (presumably) sad news that her aunt had died. Thats why it was so hilarious when Arya started laughing. Then they just panned up and away. No resolution to that scene whatsoever. Whatever happens will happen next week. I’m going to assume that the Hound swoops Arya up and tries to make a run for it.
You know, I don’t know if Sansa’s decision to be crafty really is all that abrupt. She has always used her words to massage the situation into a more comfortable place for her. As early as the first season, she backs up Joffrey’s lie about Mycah the butcher’s boy. (Telling Cersei about Ned’s plan to remove her from Kings’ Landing was not a lie, but it was a crafty, unstraightforward thing to do. No, I’m not condoning it.) Before her marriage to Tyrion and the arrival of the Tyrells afforded her some small measure of respite, she had to lie and talk-around things and use her “armor of courtesy” on a near constant basis to avoid physical abuse, or as much of it as she could, and to keep Joffrey from killing random Ser Dontases on whim. I’d venture to say that her helping the noblewomen of Kings’ Landing keep their spirits up during the siege was a form of manipulation in itself, if in service of a good cause. Now — after being interrupted by a depressive period — what we see is her choosing to use these lies not out of fear anymore, but out of a smattering of ambition. It’s always been there, there’s just been a lull. She’s been too young to play the real Game before, only the game of “things that immediately affect Sansa” — but mopey Sansa allowing the Game to simply be played upon and around her isn’t really her original, natural state. (And I like her, for the record. I didn’t, when I first read the series back in the 90s and so on, but this time around I’m seeing things in a way I didn’t before.)
(Possibly a difference in screen resolution, but on my monitor her hair is nothing like Cat’s now — it’s straight up dark “Aleyne” brown.)
(Hmmm — even in the books, when they blame the minstrel and imprison him for Lysa’s death, Sansa goes along with it and corroborates the story not only out of being intimidated and bascially still in the throes of PTSD, but also because it keeps Molesty Marillion well the hell away from her.)
@75 So follow the convoluted Little finger logic. Little finger can’t tell the truth about the dagger because he would in effect be accusing King Robert Baratheon of attempting to kill Bran Stark. It’s Robert’s dagger and Little finger knows, but he also knows accusing the king would be unbelievable to Ned and Catelyn so he tells a believable lie: the imp did it to avoid more suspicion. If Little finger told Ned and Catelyn about the Jon Arryn murder, Ned and Catelyn would have had him killed end of story.
@76 So why does Little finger save Ned’s life in the throne room then? Why does he negotiate for his release to the Night’s Watch? And last time I checked Sansa is a Stark so he doesn’t want all the Starks dead. If Lysa is anything she’s more like a knight. She’s more complicated than a pawn. Remember her father aborted their child in utero without her consent. It changed her forever and she hated Jon Arryn towards the end of their marriage especially when Jon started talking about separating Sweetrobin to be a ward for Stannis or Tywin.
@77 In the books, Sansa lingers in the kiss and then slides her face to the side to break it off. I see what you mean in the show initially but when she breaks off the kiss she just pulls her head back. There’s no resistance from Little finger.
He’s also brave, brilliant, and bankable. He gives Sansa and the Starks so many options to regain their power. Now that Tywin is dead, who else has the smarts to efficiently run a realm? Varys, Stannis, Baelish.
Messy ending, but I believe this only sets the stage for more upsets. More to come in the next episodes.
Littlefinger, I do have some issues with the ‘she lingered, so she must have wanted it’ mentality.
1)The age difference may not be as big of a deal in this time period, but that doesn’t necessarily make it right either. Slavery wasn’t a big deal either, but you don’t see anybody arguing for that. And even if she is portrayed as a little older, I think her maturity isn’t quite at his level, not to mention the fact that she’s basically a prisoner of the whole situation. But the rest of my points don’t rely on age.
2)Regardless of how she felt (or how you think she felt) during the kiss, she didn’t invite it in the first place.
3)It is definitely possible to be conflicted, and a part of her may even be curious as to what a kiss would be like or even attracted to him for whatever reason (be it Stockholm syndrome or some genuine admiration) or physically enjoying it. But I’ve always believed that positive feelings or enjoyment don’t overweigh or negate any negative emotions or a general feeling that you don’t want it. Slightly different situation, but when I was dating/growing up, I did not want to be sexually active for philosophical reasons, and in general avoided a lot of very physical intimacy while dating. That doesn’t mean I didn’t physically enjoy such things or feel a craving for them, or wouldn’t have physically responded if somebody had started leading me towards that, and maybe not even have been able to resist the tempation, but there is a difference between what I may want physically and what I REALLY want. I have no respect for people who KNOW their partner doesn’t want to pass certain lines and goes out of their way to tempt them and then just says, “Well, you were enjoying it, so I assumed you changed your mind” (thankfully my partners have always been respectful, but I can think of three people immediately who have had other experiences, and one of them had a partner who actually said that (and I don’t buy for a second that he actually thought that), and I know two others who ended up having sex when they really didn’t want to because they were never even really given a chance to consent or deny even though there was a LOT of previous knowledge and discussions that the person did not want to have sex. While there is probably room for debate as to whether or not you would consider that rape/assault since there was no physical coercison and a person of sufficiently strong will COULD stand up and say no (although in one of the situation it involved a sober person taking advantage of a very drunk person after driving them home), I still think it is something like entrapment in that the person is deliberately tempting and taking advantage of a person’s weakness to get them to do something that they may want in the short term but will regret later. I find that despicable, and not the way you treat a person whom you care about.
I apologize, I’ve derailed a little, as the situation here was probably not as extreme…I’m just trying to point out that conflicted feelings (and I won’t deny that Sansa could have been conflicted) don’t equal consent or that it is appropriate for him to take advantage of that.
4)Regarding her not pulling away or lingering, etc. I thankfully do not have much experience being assaulted, but I do have one very vivid memory of being a child (around 5th grade) and hiding in the bushes with a slightly older boy (middle school aged) who was going to teach me how to kiss. I felt uncomfortable with it and I remember when he leaned over to kiss me I completely froze up and had no idea what to do. I was afraid of getting in trouble, I was afraid of being ridiculed, I was afraid of being ‘rude’…so i just sat there for a few minutes, and probably instinctively kissed back, and then hightailed it out of there and never talked to him again because the whole thing freaked me out so much, and I also felt somehow complicit and was terrified my parents would find out (I had a good upbringing; my parents would not have punished me in any way – but at the time, I felt like I had done something wrong, my stomach was in knots, and couldn’t even put my finger on why. Even after the fact, I’d remember it and feel vaguely ‘dirty’.). Kissing kids is one thing, but then as you get older, you also have the fear that a person could become angry and hurt you or overpower you…well, there are a lot of reasons you might not pull away right away. I don’t think the freezing/autopilot response is uncommon, even in adults.
Certainly feel free to debate Littlefinger’s motives for doing what he’s doing, and how much culpability he has for the events in Westeros. But I really don’t think it can be argued that his kissing Sansa is not creepy in any way, or that Sansa meaningfully consented to this, in book or show.
@83:
Littlefinger is creepy. Even within the contexts of the world he lives in. But not because he kissed a young girl. Nor for reasons of consent as we view them (in world).
Bottom line: In that culture, fathers regularly sell their daughters to other houses and the daughters literally have no say. Girls younger than Sansa. Then new husbands take what they want from the little girls and what the little girls want isn’t really an issue. They have no power and authority to say no to their husbands, and if they did, no law in the kingdom would say that the husband raped the little girl.
That’s creepy.
No, in context, Littlefinger is creepy because he views Sansa as a Cat substitute, and there is more than a little perversion in that whole thing.
This. And nothing else.
I’ve only ever said that she’s conflicted about Littlefinger which is why she lingered. Sansa is fifteen at this point and has already kissed Joffrey and been assaulted by him and others. She’s not a child and she’s more world weary, suspicious, and skeptical than your typical 15 year old would be at this time in the story. She repulses Marillion immediately in the books, but doesn’t do the same with Petyr.
Rape is never okay. And pedophelia is even worse. This is not an argument for that. However, Petyr has restrained himself and in my mind would never force himself upon Sansa in that way. But how else can you show you like a person romantically other than to kiss them and then wait for their response? He’s already made several grand gestures including saving her life twice. The kiss undoubtedly changes their relationship as Sansa now has a clearer understanding of Petyr’s motivations.
The age difference is a huge factor and automatically we think the maiden fair will be taken advantage of by this clever forty-something year old man. But Little finger isn’t cruel. He’s not Joffrey or Ramsay. There is no evidence in his back story of hurting people just because he could. He’s not wanton. His purpose is clear and when he takes out a target there is barely any collateral damage. I think the only way that the relationship could progress at this point is if Sansa initiates most of the physical contact. But that physicality is second in my mind to the political ramifications of their union. Sansa is a perfect symbol of what Lannister aggression does to people and she can use that to unite the Vale behind her. We will all stop thinking of Sansa as someone who needs protection when she has the loyalty of 50,000 men.
At the risk of being deemed impolite, I have to say that the first part of 81 reads to me like a troll. It basically says that LF killed his own parents and then pleaded for mercy as an orphan.
AlanBrown@77: You’ve pretty much summed LF up correctly:
“I agree that Littlefinger is a ‘complex’ character. He has many sides. He is not only creepy, he is manipulative, he is greedy, he is selfish, he is power-hungry, and he is slimy.”
I think we many find, at the end of the series, that LF was the evilist, creepiest character of all. Irredeemable. A total and complete sociopath.
As for Sansa…..She’s been watching and learning and growing up very fast these last (2?) years. I’m not sure she has any real “feelings” for LF, but she’s playing his game, hopefully for her own reasons.
@88:
I can’t imagine anything in this series being black and white in the end.
Well, I disagree that just becuase he doesn’t revel in wanton violence that he isn’t cruel. He’s certainly not the Mountain, but he’s no altruist either.
Setting aisde the cultural relativism in regards to their ages (I do think it’s wrong, but I know that it wouldn’t be thought of as wrong or given a second thought for many of the people in this society)…I do think there is a manipulative aspect to this relationship, even if she were aged up. That’s how I read it, at least.
I do have to comment on this. “But how else can you show you like a person romantically other than to kiss them and then wait for their response?” – I’m going to preface this with a statement that I do NOT claim to speak for all women and what all women want (or men for that matter), and this is only MY perspective. But if somebody were pursuing me with that attitude I would not enjoy it. There are a LOT of ways. You can talk about it, for one (which is how my now husband brought it up). You can give them silly gifts or do fun things together. You can pay them genuine compliments. You can put their needs above your own and generally be a close friend who is there for them and helps them be a better person.
I’m not saying that there is not a place for flirting, touching, spontaneous affection, kissing without an express conversation about that fact – obviously somebody has to be the one to initiate. But I think you have to be really careful about it and not just assume there is chemistry where there is none, and be really cognizant of the body language and if they seem to be reciprocating (and I do not think Sansa would fall in this boat) because they really want to and be willing to back off. Or at least try to suss out their feelings on such things – some women may have no issue with it and enjoy boldness, and some women might find it deeply triggering, and there are others who probably just fall in the middle (like me).
I’m not saying this to equate all men who attempt to kiss a woman without asking with somebody who assaults them – my first kiss was during a dance at a science camp (dork…) with a guy I did not feel the same way about; it was uncomfortable for me. That said, I don’t hold it against him that he took the risk, and we remain good friends to this day because he was able to respect my boundaries/signals after that (well, there were some other uncomfortable moments, but after a bit of discussion over the next few weeks it worked out). If he had tried to kiss me again, we would not be. My husband flat out told me he had feelings for me – and I told him I did not (and I didn’t at the time). Thankfully that was the end of it – he didn’t try to convince me to change my mind. If he had, we probably would not be married today ;) Eventually I did change my mind, and let him know.
I know there are some woman that are into being pursued and I’m not going to demonize that, but everybody is different.
And at any rate, this is all moot, as I don’t think LF is genuinely interested in Sansa’s well being or that this is anything like a normal courtship.
@86, I would say you need some serious education in the ways that predators groom their victims before you can state things like that.
Those of us who’ve studied this, or worse, experienced it, see all kinds of red flags in LF’s behavior, that you handwave away as him just looking out for her best interest. No. He is a predator. He is predating on Sansa, using her indebtedness to him to facilitate a relationship she does not want.
She talks about how he continues to try and kiss her, and she’s always so very careful to make sure he kisses her cheek and not her face.
Those are the actions of a boundary crossing predator.
The steps he is taking may empower Sansa. But they are designed to empower him most of all, which is something I think you keep forgetting when you say that “he’s the best chance for a Stark resurgence”
My point is exactly this: In the books he does respect Sansa’s responses. Most see the kiss and immediately write Littlefinger off as dastardly. It’s just a kiss. If more than that happened, I would be joining the mob with pitchfork in hand as well, but more didn’t happen for the span of some months while there is no one there in the Eyrie who could really stop Littlefinger from having his way with Sansa, but that is not what Littlefinger wants.
I do think Petyr has changed sides and is now a full support of the Starks If he wasn’t, then he would keep Sansa hidden as Alayne. But that’s not his plan. He wants to marry her to Harry the Heir and get the entire Vale on her side. This is certainly in Sansa’s best interest politically, even if she hasn’t met Harry yet. All we know of him is he’s already fathered a few bastards. I think monogamy is going to be an issue for him which in the minds of a lot of Sansa fans who want her to remain pure is just fine with them. I can almost hear them: Let Sansa marry Harry and come to an understanding about Sansa’s virginity. You can keep your womanizing Harry if you take back Winterfell.
@91 Petyr takes enormous risks to his own person by helping Sansa which are totallydisregarded because you think it’s predatory. You see Sansa as not wanting the relationship so I ask you why hasn’t she killed Petyr yet?If she genuinely feels as you say that she’s a prisoner fearing that she will be raped by Petyr, why hasn’t she found a knife a tried to kill him? She’s had ample opportunity. Again he is making his feelings known. He isn’t forcing her to do anything she doesn’t want. He accepts the kisses on the cheek as the part they must play as father and daughter. Does he want more? Sure. Will he take more from Sansa without her consent? Absolutely not, and if he does, I’ll be right there with you.
why hasn’t she found a knife a tried to kill him?
Again, this statement reveals a depth of ignorance about abuse.
@92, 93 – Moderator here. We appreciate all your input, but at this point, maybe it’s best to “agree to disagree”? Everyone has the right to read things differently. Let’s keep things civil and not make the disagreement too personal. Thanks.
Yeah, Littlefinger is creepy (I can’t believe there is even a debate with that) but do I consider him a villain? Not really (certainly not in the Ramsay, Gregor, or Joffrey sense). In fact, I love that I kind of root for him despite his betrayal of Ned Stark and his countless transgressions on ‘honor’. It probably is the whole ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ thing. At the moment our desires (Sansa creepery aside) align and therefore I respect his competence and root for him. I find him to be a completely believable and intriguing ‘grey’ villain. Although, the more I think about it the more I realize that the only thing ‘grey’ about his villainy is his which side he is on. When he aligns with my team he is a powerful ally but when not, he is a loathsome foe.
It is my hope that later in the series we have an epic battle of wits between Varys and Littlefinger where the Sicilian… I mean Littlefinger overthinks the game and is outsmarted by the Spider.
“But how else can you show you like a person romantically other than to kiss them and then wait for their response?”
I make no attempt to speak for anyone but myself. But:
This is one of the most heinous messages I’ve been getting out of pop culture lately, and I find it so distressing, I can’t even tell you. This is why the caveat “Well, it’s a medieval society, we’re supposed to be looking at it through their eyes” doesn’t work for me at all, because real life people living in today’s world are internalizing this message as applicable for themselves and their current lives. Now. Today. From this scene to the massively popular Twilight, and even to a show that, for every other reason, I simply adore: Avatar the Last Airbender. A show targted at 7-year-olds. (And it’s worse in Korra, which I don’t like.) I’m gonna kiss you until you like it.
NO.
You. Can. Ask.
“You” equalling a generic “one” in this paragraph, not targeted at anyone here: You can lean in very slowly and gently and you can rehearse your sexy gravelly man-murmur in the mirror beforehand, find a make it work for you somehow, and if it doesn’t work then perhaps the one you are targeting it at is not the correct partner for you, but you can in fact use your words. It is not remotely difficult to say, in a variety of ways, “Can I kiss you?”
Try “I want to kiss you” if that feels manlier, but this lip-smash-face has got to stop being seen as standard procedure (unless you’re already in a relationship where you’ve established that you both like it). For me, for a variety of reasons, that feels like assault and I will respond in kind.
I reiterate, I make no attempt to speak for any masses. Just pointing out what stack of goods I personally am not willing to buy at this time.
@95, I completely agree. I find Littlefinger an amazing character to read about, and I’m happy that for the moment his interests align with empowering Sansa. I was giddy when he explained to Sansa his plan for her and Harry the Heir.
BUT
That doesn’t mean I don’t see him for what he is, or that I think he’s a good guy, or that I don’t sit in fear that one day his desire for Sansa will override his “good sense”, and that she will be in danger from his predations.
Late to this party, but scanning the thread I don’t see anybody has brought this up regarding Grey Worm and Missandei:
I thought the scenes were very troubling.
First, I love that the show is trying to get meaningful screen-time for its non-white actors. That’s excellent. Keep doing that, show.
That said, those were not sweet scenes, in my opinion. Grey Worm peeped, Missandei felt violated–and of course she did because she was being peeped on–and the resolution was her admitting that she wanted it anyway.
That is not good. That’s the definition of male fantasy. That’s rape apologia without the rape. She’s a victim here, and just as the scene is appearing to acknowledge that she was victimized and that Grey Worm should–at the minimum–feel bad, the writers decide that no it’s okay because she wanted it anyway (which was also how the same writers handwaved away Jamie raping Cersei, let’s not forget). It’s a creepier scene to me than anything that happens with Littlefinger, because at least his scenes are supposed to be creepy. They are self-consciously so. This is legitimately the writers not trying to be creepy and failing.
@98 — I am torn about the Missendei/Grey Worm scenes and find your take valid.
(I’ve not been fully trusting my initial reaction, as it was one of a book reader, aka “Oh god no, she’s really seven years old!!!” — and as I saw the episode late, this reaction was to a GIF without context, so I’ve been trying to examine that.)
I find that take valid as well, but I don’t think that’s what the writers are intending(not that that matters).
I think we are supposed to read Melisandre as intrigued by his attraction, but confused as to how to react, because consensual attraction is something she has never been allowed to experience before. So that’s why she goes to Dany, who’s more experienced in her eyes, but Dany is profoundly ignorant as well, and it shows, in that she doesn’t know how to move forward.
But still, she confronts GW over it, so good on her, which is more resolution than Jaime/Cersei got.
Oh, I was conflicted too. This is one of those areas where I may need to examine my own assumptions, but in general I was okay with it. I do accept your interpretation, especially because I was watching on a laptop that kept lagging as it streamed over a bad wireless connection, so I couldn’t always see all the facial expressions and body language and missed a few parts of the scene. I also missed a lot of the scene with her and Daenerys, so if she talked about being uncomfortable with it and then backpedaled, I missed that.
Also, big disclaimer, I’m speaking for myself.
I’m personally not bothered by *looking* (assuming it is in a public place) or appreciating beauty. I don’t think it automatically means objectification or disrespect or even lust (in the negative sense of the word that implies selfishness, obsession, etc) is taking place. Since they were bathing in a more or less public place, I didn’t feel that Grey Worm was peeping, per se (I didn’t get the impression he’d snuck anywhere to do it). That said, he may have crossed the line into outright leering/staring, and of course if she seemed uncomfortable by it, he should have stopped.
But, I was hoping somebody else would bring it up as I was interested in what people thought.
Littlefinger is only on Littlefinger’s side.
He will play everyone off against each other to achieve his own ends., switching allegiance as needed. If he “accidently” empowers and teaches Sansa how to play the game, it only helps him. Unless, Sansa eventually does him in for his predations. (Go Sansa!)
I agree there was a creep factor with Grey Worm peeping at Missendei, and then the author has her saying she liked it…..but I mostly found that scene terribly sad. Was he just curious about women’s bodies? Can he still feel desire? Does he just care terribly for her? She obviously cares for him. Maybe a great non-sexual love affair will happen. Ha.
Does castration destroy all desire for sex and love? If my stomach was removed and I was fed through an IV, I would miss tasty food even if I never got hungry again.
To be a little more nuanced about my take:
I was pretty uncomfortable with the actual leering scene because of the way it was shot. The audience was given the opportunity to lovingly ogle Missandei from the front and the back while she half-heartedly “covered up” (what she actually did within the frame of the shot was stand up in order to expose herself more fully). It was the film-makers saying “hey don’t look you shouldn’t be looking but haha yeah you should TOTALLY be looking.”
The actual confrontation scene was more interesting, and presented them with a lot of opportunities for positivity.
The kicker for me with that confrontation scene was that she says, “I’m glad you looked” at the end of it. I felt like the scene was doing okay by having Grey Worm recognize that he made her uncomfortable and apologizing for it, and giving her some agency in the interaction, and generally actually having them talk about it (like mature adults should do!).
But then she says, “I’m glad you looked.” She doesn’t accept his apology. She doesn’t say, “I’m okay even though this happened.” She dismisses the need for an apology entirely, and that’s where they lost me. Grey Worm was CORRECT to be apologizing. If she forgave him, it would be one thing, but she doesn’t do that. Ultimately, it’s the writers telling the audience that there was nothing to apologize for there, which is the same message we’ve seen them send about prurience and sexual assault time and time again. This was a smaller offense as these things go, but its import magnified for me by being one more on such a long list.
The show writers get many things fantastically, marvelously right by their female characters, but they have a few glaring male entitlement issues that consistently hurt scenes like this.
It should have been a great scene with two really excellent characters of color acting more mature about their sexuality and more respectful of each other than anybody else in the show, except that it ended on that bitter, sour note of pervy apologia.
@103: I don’t think anybody is saying that Grey Worm shouldn’t feel the attraction that he does. I would argue that it’s an important part of his growth as a newly actualized, empowered, individual human being. It seems perfectly natural that he feels desire like this, whether it’s explicitly sexual or not.
But he shouldn’t simply be excused for acting like a pervert because of it, which is what I feel the writers made Missandei do.
@98 – I understand what you’re saying regarding Grey Worm and Messandei but I think you are leaving out a core fact: Grey Worm is very much an emotional child in some respects. He has never thought of himself as anything but a weapon and has always believed that he would never be with or could ever be loved by a woman (both emotionally and physically). With his freedom and his continued awakening of his emotional and dynamic self, he is going through what a lot of us did in our early teens—essentially and emotional puberty. None of this makes the ‘peeping’ on Missandei better or anything other than a violation; however, I think it adds an innocence that brings it far from the stratosphere of the Jaime/Cersei debacle.
Plus, he did approach her to apologize and they had discussions regarding his castration. This whole scene spoke to me of what was lost and what could be—rather than the objectification and voyeurism from what you saw. Both I believe are apparent and valid but I think it was a much more complex scene than just the directors/writers unknowingly being rape apologists.
@106: Oh, I agree about Grey Worm’s emotional maturity and some of the other parts of the interaction that were more positive. I hope my comments at 104 and 105 elucidate on that a bit.
@103, No it does not.
And for all you people with penises, I hate to inform you but great sex happens without that. So no, they won’t be having a great non sexual relationship, they will be having a great sexual one. They just won’t be doing any PIV
@108 – Just to clarify, are you referring to woman and woman or woman and castrated man? I am at a loss (maybe I am naive here) to understand how a “great sexual” relationship would be accomplished without a penis—for the man anyway.
That makes sense, I missed a lot of the Grey Worm/Missandei conversation too…I hate negated apologies, and it seems like a common response in many situations (although especially egregious in these kinds of situations), maybe because we have an issue with guilt and its appearance sometimes.
@109: The One Where Rachel Finds Out
@111 – Well played. Well played.
And for all you people with penises, I hate to inform you but great sex happens without that.
Inconceivable.
@@@@@ 109: Intimacy vs Sex
Many couples have a fulfilling intimate relationship even after the ability to have sex is removed because of various reasons.
I’m not going down the rest of the road. Walk and learn.
Underbelly@106: Well said.
Aeryl….I certainly didn’t mean to imply that fun couldn’t be had without a penis, but I am clueless about the possibility of sexual desire for an eunich. I realize there are lots of options, but is there desire?
@115: I don’t see any reason why there wouldn’t be. The penis is hardly the only erogenous zone on the body. And as a penis weilder, I can attest to the fact that when I feel desire, it’s not a concentrated to the one spot. I feel it in my chest, certainly, as a powerful emotion, and in other areas and through other mechanisms which I will refrain from describing here and now.
@115 From what I’ve read, this varies from person to person. So many factors come into play. I’m not sure what bits TV Unsullied have taken from them. (What the frak was Dany’s term? “Sword and medals”??) I believe book Unsullied were given the Varys treatment — everything external taken away.
The TV treatment would affect hormones (medals), but would not take away the ability to have an erection, and desire is more than half emotional. And loss of one’s, uh, “sword” would affect sensation, but there are other man-bits that can feel things (some of them internal).
And I think some veterans who’ve been partially castrated by grenades have given testimonies on this, in textbooks and such — therapies (mostly mental/psychological) they’ve gone through to be intimate with their wives again and so on.
It’s different for everyone, the person who loves them just has to care enough figure out what makes them feel good.
I’m not sure about the show but in the books everything is taken from the unsullied, both the testicles and the penis, leaving nothing. This is done at the age of five. More than likely it means that they are cut before any sexual arousal. So the question is, will someone who has never felt arousal and who can no longer have an erection be able to be aroused? I certainly don’t know the answer to this. Someone earlier said if they no longer had a stomach and could no longer eat they would still miss eating food, but if that person had never eaten or tasted food would they still miss it?
Also, great sex can be had without a penis by women, but not so much for men. There is nothing there to stimulate. I’m not saying that Missandei and Grey Worm can’t have a healthy sexual relationship, but it would be pretty one sided. There are plenty of things that he can still do to satisfy her obviously, but not so much that can be done for him. Of course just being able to satisy her could be enough for him.
Yeah, the Unsullied and the ladies were all in the river, or whatever it was, together, the ladies were naked… The whole thing confused me, I’ll admit. Did the ladies not know the Unsullied were there? I also didn’t get that Grey Worm was leering at her. He was certainly looking, but then when she stood up and covered herself, he got uncomfortable. I’m not sure he had any idea he was doing anything wrong until then.
I got the feeling that Missandei was caught offguard because it was Grey Worm. I don’t know that she actually thought he did something wrong. I mean, she must know that if she’s naked in a river with a bunch of men, men are going to look. I’m just not sure she viewed Unsullied as men before. I think this scene had as much to do with that as it did with anything else.
I also didn’t get that she ignored his apology. I got the feeling that she accepted his apology with a nod of her head, then he started to turn away, and she told him that she was glad he saw, as a confession. Because in the scene as he’s apologizing, she came to realize that she was glad. It wasn’t that she secretly enjoyed him watching, it was that it forced her to acknowledge him as a man, inspite of his condition. And she likes what she sees in him as a man.
Beacause the Unsullied are not regarded as full men, and because the women were all ex slaves and not really brought up with the idea that modesty was something they were entitled to, the bathing together didn’t seem that odd to me. (Plus, there are cultures which have protocols surrounding communal bathing where people don’t have to have had extraordiary things like enslavement happen to them to not believe in a big huge separation between the genders.) And Dany gave her speech about the Dothraki. The women were not at all bathing very far away from the Unsullied. In a stricter cultural context I could easily see them not only bathing much farther away but at a completely different time of day, if I were meant to take this as a taboo.
All these people have been in extreme circumstances, so I’d expect a very different reaction from them than from, say, Sansa.
That said, this is probably what makes what Grey Worm did even more out of place — if you have a group of people who are not that bothered by communal nudity, you’re also going to have a group of people who are not that intrigued by it either, and so Grey Worm going out of his way to stare is going to be weird and strange — so yes, Missandei’s intitial standing up and then being weirded out by his continued staring and covering herself makes sense. Also see her conversation with Dany being not about whether or not he saw, but whether he was “interested” in what he saw.
I think Grey Worm’s, well, “unsullied” state has to be taken into consideration — he is fairly childlike. Still, the state of childhood is one of learning — children can be corrected. I think the correction of Grey Worm should have been allowed to stand. I think it could have been done without cutting off all avenues of the pair of them continuing their friendship or even getting closer.
In short — apologies good, yay apologies! but Iwish their conversation had indicated more that Missandei maybe changed her mind after his apology, because of his apology. That she no longer minded, I could accept. That she maybe felt better about the whole thing. Maybe even that she wants to look further into this. But that she had been glad for him to stare all along, which I think the scene implies — this makes it seem like she does not know her own mind, and I believe that to be inaccurate, I believe she was troubled and upset.
@118 — to be, um, super clinical (how direct am I allowed to be on Tor.com, anyway?), even book-version Unsullied still have their prostates. Much has been lost; all is definitely not lost.
(And…to be… sort of reluctantly honest? I…uh… don’t at all know how to feel about this deep exploration of the plight of the castrated black slave man, I really, really don’t. I guess they’re being very sensitive so far, but this could get so very touchy/triggery and I’m nervous. I would really like them to not eff this up. Also slightly wigged by the “meeting you justifies a lifetime of enslavement and maiming.” I understand what they were getting at, but I’m wigged. I’m just wigged.)
@119: Look at how the scene is framed, though. Grey Worm is obscured from his mouth down. There’s not even a clear indication that he’s actually naked. The treatment of male bodies and female bodies in the scene is completely different, and if Grey Worm isn’t meant to be leering at Missandei, the audience certainly is. But on the topic of Grey Worm, I think whatever they intended he is leering. The same way his body is under water makes him, essentially, little more than a pair of eyes on the screen. He might as well be hiding in a bush.
Later, when he apologizes, she specifically does dismiss the apology. She says outright, “you have nothing to apologize for.” It’s not implied. It’s explicit.
I hope I’ve said enough in previous comments that it doesn’t seem like I’m dismissing the good things those scenes certainly do accomplish, but I also don’t think I’m reaching with my criticisms. These were here actual words. “You have nothing to apologize for.” “I’m glad you saw.”
Anthony Pero@119: Well said. Both men and women were bathing very close to one another. I get the feeling that this was very normal. And GrayWorm is looking, because he has had interaction and attraction to Missandei while she tutored him. He certainly cares for her. Possibly this is the first time he has ever felt this emotion!
And I agree with you also about Missandei thinking of the Unsullied as Men for the first time, due to her own affection for Gray Worm. By her confessing that she was glad he looked, she is letting him know that she likes him in a “love” kind of way, as well as that she was glad they got to have this conversation. I have the feeling this is new territory for both former slave Maiden and former slave Unsullied.
re: Dany
Dany sucks at the whole queen-thing? No surprise there. She has been horrible with the actual politics-part of ruling from the get go and hasn’t improved one iota since. Not least because as a Well-Intentioned Extremist she doesn’t want to hear sensible advice from her advisers.
She just can’t let go of her black-and-white world view, narcissistic self entitlement and unwillingness to compromise. Right now, power is not a thing she should have…
@120,121:
Well, if she said it, then she said it, and I can understand that it might bother some people, as it DOES undermine Grey Worm’s apology. It is quite common, especially amongst us people IRL, however, to say, “You have nothing to apologize for” when what we really mean is “You have no reason to continue to feel bad.” I don’t think its good practice, but I also have no idea what cultural norms Missandei is working from.
As far as the leering… Grey Worm was already in that position when he saw her. He froze. Its more like a deer caught in headlights (that pun is completely unintentional!) than a peeping tom hiding in the bushes, to my eyes. Just goes to show you how two witnesses can see the same scene and come up with completely different interpretations. Without a writer telling us what Grey Worm was thinking, I’m pretty sure we can’t really know.
Prior to Grey Worm being freed by Dany, I doubt he’d seen many women clothed, much less naked. Not only the emotions, but probably the female form are new to him.
@124: I think we do have an indication of what the writers/directors were thinking, though. By the same logic that Grey Worm was already in that position and froze, how do we reconcile Missandei trying to “cover up” by standing (which really only served to allow the audience to ogle her (from) behind)? Far easier and more effective to cover up by dipping below the water. She’s being filmed to be leered at. I can appreciate the idea that Grey Worm is not emotionally mature enough to immediately realize what he’s doing, or to respond appropriately, and I certainly appreciate the arguments about the development of these characters that complicates both of their actions. I’m even willing, and happy, to rationalize the actions and motivations of the characters considering their history and context. I’ll completely back off of my accusations against the characters, because that seems reasonable to me considering wht everyone is saying.
But I will not give the writers or the director a pass on it. They filmed it the wrong way and they put the wrong words in her mouth, as they have done for their characters time and time again when sex and sexuality are involved.
In re, more on the GW & Missandei thing, back in the first episode(?) there is a scene where she’s teaching him Common, and he tries to take her hand, and she hurriedly pulls it away.
What context this adds to this scene, I don’t know, but it seemed to me, at the time, that they were implying she was aware of GW’s attraction, and was hesitant to indulge in it.
And as a penis weilder, I can attest to the fact that when I feel desire, it’s not a concentrated to the one spot.
Best thing I’ve seen all day.
On another note, this episode, like that episode, was directed by Alex Graves. I’m not sure about this, but is it possible that he is just not the go-to director for scenes of a sensual or sexual nature if you don’t want them coming off in a way that wasn’t intended?
Looking at some of the stuff Graves has done, maybe.
He’s also doing the finale. I expect terrible things now, in re a certain character who should be reappearing.
oh dear. oh no.
Tangent: Has it ever been pondered upon why Gregor Clegane bothers to remain loyal to the Lannisters? How do they control/unleash at will/properly aim such a creature?????
He’s not Hodor; he’s not impaired or stuck in a childlike framework of obedience-habit — how does this even work?? For some reason I have trouble picturing him podering the opportunity cost of his position in life and NOT just going on a lifelong rampage, instead deciding to contain his ramapage for (mostly) Lannister enemies.
@Maac:
In the books, while Gregor is bloodthirsty, he’s at least as intelligent as the Hound. He realizes that if he’s off the reservation, he’ll get cut down by a group of knights. The Lannisters protect him and allow him to do what he wants, as long as he is loyal. He’s not insane–well, yeah, he’s insane, but he’s not out of his mind.
As far as complaints that the director is exploiting the female (and male) form –have we been watching the same show? That’s not exactly new. There has been exactly zero attempt to justify nudity for nudity’s sake on this show. The viewer has been invited to oogle both male and female characters for four seasons now. This at least seemed to have something of a point. The Sexposition actually gets on my nerves.
We certainly have been watching the same show. I don’t really understand the idea here, though. Is the complaint less valid because they’ve done worse before?
No, in just confused as to why this draws a complaint when other similar things have not.
Oh they’ve totally drawn complaints, my fine fellow fan! Complaints have been drawn. Well and truly. En masse.
I think the point Garett is making, though, about this particular instance, is not simply clutch-the-pearls-we-have-seen-Nathalie-Emmanuelle’s-perly-rear. Nudity in and of itself is not problematic. The scene we have here, however, is duplicitous — buy which I don’t mean full of lies, but serving two simultaenous purposes, ones which are at odds with each other. Firstly and most blatantly, it’s a scene wherein a person’s supposed attempt to cover herself exposes her more (to the audience and/or to her onscreen observer, and secondly, it’s a scene wherein a the nudity in question is explained as meaning contradictory things to the nude person; what the script says is being conveyed is NOT being wholly or clearly or unambiguously conveyed. This doesn’t happen in the sexposition scenes — naked prostitutes are naked on purpose and are doing naked sex things, this is unambiguous and clear. In the sexposition scenes, nudity isn’t conflated with modesty and straightforward words are not conflated with troubled facial expsressions and body language that demonstrate conflicted feelings. There is no impression given that the characters involved in those scenes are confused, upset, or do not know their own minds. Those scenes do exactly what they are meant to do both for the plot and for the veiwing audience.
Maac, that’s a really cogent explanation of one of the reasons this set of scenes is causing me to spend so much time on it. Thank you.
More generally, I specifically haven’t complained about other things here very much because I’m a bit of an infrequent poster. When I do join the fray, it tends to be in bursts, like this. But the show certainly leaves me with mixed feelings a few times an episode, and not just on account of sexy stuff. The Theon plotlines since his capture have left me consistently disdainful of the writing team, in particular, as well.
Luckily the show does enough well that I feel like I’m never complaining because the show is bad. Only because it can be better.
Two random thoughts, as I recently watched the episode again, once I had a better connection and didn’t have to stream it live
1)Regarding Missandei/Grey Worm – I still think the original criticisms are valid (especially with regards to the way the apology is handled, and how it ends with the idea that there is nothing to apologize for instead of ackonwledging it and moving on), but I did notice two things (perhaps my own projection). One, during the actual starting, when Missandei seems to notice and look back, Grey Worm does seem to shift his eyes downward a bit and perhaps seems to realize that maybe he’s doing something wrong. And, during the apology scene, when Missandei says “I’m glad you saw me”, I couldn’t help but wonder if it was meant to have a double meaning…my first thought was actually that she meant ‘see’ in a deeper way – she’s glad he was able to see her as a person, a woman, etc – somebody he may actually be able to connect with – instead of his previous worldview in which he is a slave and can’t really see anybody as anything except as a master or a fellow slave.
2)Regarding showing romantic feelings by kissing somebody without their consent, and how one can do that in other ways, actually, the best example I’ve seen in media lately was Anna/Kristoff in Frozen, in which he actually DOES ask if he can kiss her, but it’s still a very sweet and spontaneous scene. So, if Disney can do it, it can certainly be done.
@137, Another way, is that she’s glad he saw her, because it prompted the whole conversation and allowed them to be completely honest about their feelings, instead of clumsily dancing around it for months.
Since Pedro Pascal has died as Oberyn, and died as Dead Eddie from Buffy, is he the next Sean Bean?